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テクニカル諏訪子
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(03-14-2018, 12:37 AM)Sindar Wrote: [Only registered and activated users can see links Click here to register]

Bonus video for some peace in mind:
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ケロケロ。

Username in English: Technical Suwako
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Sindar
Retired Staff

(03-14-2018, 03:12 AM)TechnicalSuwako Wrote: Not to scare you off already, but you'll need to be able to read Kanji if you don't want to get stuck with books designed for 4 year olds or voice chats.

I know it can seem complicated, I've been through that as well.
But once you get the hang of it and you can remember the first bunch, then it's getting gradually easier.
And any Kanji you forget during the time are much easier to re-learn again.

Kanji is still a very essencial part of the written language, since too many words are written exactly the same in Hiragana, while Kanji can make things easier to understand.
And it's easier to separate words from each other if you can read Kanji, since the Japanese language doesn't use spaces.

I think this guy explains it best:


Bonus video for some peace in mind:

All hope lost TT_TT It is funny that Japanese don't know some of their kanji though : D Honestly, I thought time and tech would gradually push the language to simplify, abandon some of the more difficult elements, including some of the kanji. I wonder if that is going to be true though.

(This post was last modified: 03-14-2018, 03:36 AM by Sindar.)

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テクニカル諏訪子
Retired Staff

(03-14-2018, 03:36 AM)Sindar Wrote: All hope lost TT_TT It is funny that Japanese don't know some of their kanji though : D Honestly, I thought time and tech would gradually push the language to simplify, abandon some of the more difficult elements, including some of the kanji. I wonder if that is going to be true though.

To be honest, I actually think these types of advances only make you more dumb.
Because in the old days, you had no other choice than to learn things by heart, but now technology is here to take over these tasks, meaning you no longer need to learn any more.
And even then, human knowledge is still superior over artificial knowledge, since machines don't take so many into account (like untranslatable grammar or politeness levels for example), meaning that learning languages will continue to be important.

Somebody on Discord even started to use a BetterDiscord plugin to automatically translate English to Japanese when he talks to me, and Japanese to English when I reply.
That translation plugin even fails at most basic sentences both ways.

If you mean something like language learning apps (like Duolingo and Rosetta Stone), I actually think that's a scam.
They're nice for the very basics of a language, but if you actually want to master a language, or at least be fluent in it, then your only option is to use it in the real world with real humans.

In fact, I acquired 95% of my Japanese skills through talking with real humans online (first on Skype, then LINE, then Twitter, then Mastodon, and now Discord).
During weekdays I talk during every moment I can have a break, and during weekends I'm speaking with them all the time.
Explanation is also given in Japanese, not English.

In return, I correct their English, or when they ask me about something specific to English I explain in as much detail as possible (though that doesn't really happen a lot, since we're mostly just talking about fun stuff, not about learning a language).

(This post was last modified: 03-14-2018, 04:18 AM by テクニカル諏訪子.)

ケロケロ。

Username in English: Technical Suwako
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Sindar
Retired Staff

(03-14-2018, 04:16 AM)TechnicalSuwako Wrote: To be honest, I actually think these types of advances only make you more dumb.
Because in the old days, you had no other choice than to learn things by heart, but now technology is here to take over these tasks, meaning you no longer need to learn any more.


What I meant was, historically languages tend to simplify, since a lot of grammatical forms had been either awkwardly borrowed from other languages or became archaic over time. Irregular verbs in English is a good example, the language mostly freed itself from them. Though printed books, dictionaries and such slowed this progress way down; it still happens though. Now with internet and massive use of written text (which was never done before) and with languages becoming international, the call for simplification is especially strong. I am very interested to see how it will go with Japanese, Chinese and Korea. Chinese especially, since they don't even have aphonetic alphabet. It is pretty hard to predict trends with languages though, which makes it even more fascinating for me =)

Quote:And even then, human knowledge is still superior over artificial knowledge, since machines don't take so many into account (like untranslatable grammar or politeness levels for example), meaning that learning languages will continue to be important.

Somebody on Discord even started to use a BetterDiscord plugin to automatically translate English to Japanese when he talks to me, and Japanese to English when I reply.
That translation plugin even fails at most basic sentences both ways.

Translators are still pretty bad right now xD Though it depends on the languages. German to English translation by Google Translate is pretty smooth, for example. It will probably take them 5-10 years to master the detail. I doubt the translators will ever be able to substitute for knowing the language, especially for live conversations, but they are probably going to do just fine for information search and such. For example, I'd not be surprised in good quality auto-translated subtitles will be availible in a few years. But regardless, learning a foreign language is fun, people will still do it even if translators were really good. 

Quote:If you mean something like language learning apps (like Duolingo and Rosetta Stone), I actually think that's a scam.
They're nice for the very basics of a language, but if you actually want to master a language, or at least be fluent in it, then your only option is to use it in the real world with real humans.

In fact, I acquired 95% of my Japanese skills through talking with real humans online (first on Skype, then LINE, then Twitter, then Mastodon, and now Discord).
During weekdays I talk during every moment I can have a break, and during weekends I'm speaking with them all the time.
Explanation is also given in Japanese, not English.

In return, I correct their English, or when they ask me about something specific to English I explain in as much detail as possible (though that doesn't really happen a lot, since we're mostly just talking about fun stuff, not about learning a language).


That sounds like a lot of fun =) Yeah, I had tried Rosetta, it is easy and satisfying, but you make no progress with it. The way I like to learn is by reading and listening. At the begining I would read simplified texts with audio version, then move to comicbooks, films and regular audiobook. Talking with people would be fun too I guess, I doubt I could do it with my scedules and lifestyle though >_>

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テクニカル諏訪子
Retired Staff

(03-14-2018, 06:43 AM)Sindar Wrote: (LOTS OF TEXT)

Understood.
North- and South Korea both used Hanja (Chinese characters in Korean) before too, but they managed to completely abolish that in favour for Hangul.
Though I don't think that was a really good idea, since Korean has the same issue as Japanese and Chinese, which is same spelling for lots of different words.
But even though they no longer use Chinese characters, both Koreas still teach Korean pupils Hanja today, since there are still older documents written with Hanja and not teaching those would make them unable to understand those.

Communist China also did an effort by simplifying a huge number of Hanzi (Chinese characters in Chinese) to ensure that more Chinese people will become able to read.
It worked, though traditional characters are still in use too (which is convenient for me as someone who knows Kanji, which is more similar to the traditional characters than it is to the simplified ones).

Though Japan too simplified a lot.
I used to be in some Discord server that heavily talked about anything historical about China and Japan at one point (only 7 people including me were there, only half of which was active), they shared quite some text from ancient Japan, and I can definitely see how much more difficult Japanese was back then compared to how it is now.
I recently left since everyone stopped talking there.

(This post was last modified: 03-14-2018, 02:19 PM by テクニカル諏訪子.)

ケロケロ。

Username in English: Technical Suwako
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Angel
Super Nova

(03-14-2018, 02:19 PM)TechnicalSuwako Wrote: Understood.
North- and South Korea both used Hanja (Chinese characters in Korean) before too, but they managed to completely abolish that in favour for Hangul.
Though I don't think that was a really good idea, since Korean has the same issue as Japanese and Chinese, which is same spelling for lots of different words.
But even though they no longer use Chinese characters, both Koreas still teach Korean pupils Hanja today, since there are still older documents written with Hanja and not teaching those would make them unable to understand those.

Communist China also did an effort by simplifying a huge number of Hanzi (Chinese characters in Chinese) to ensure that more Chinese people will become able to read.
It worked, though traditional characters are still in use too (which is convenient for me as someone who knows Kanji, which is more similar to the traditional characters than it is to the simplified ones).

Though Japan too simplified a lot.
I used to be in some Discord server that heavily talked about anything historical about China and Japan at one point (only 7 people including me were there, only half of which was active), they shared quite some text from ancient Japan, and I can definitely see how much more difficult Japanese was back then compared to how it is now.
I recently left since everyone stopped talking there.

this post made me laugh. even if there is that much text, whole reading it, we could easily make out the reply. you don't have to take the text out. i read in a manga that kanji is closer to english

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Sindar
Retired Staff

(03-14-2018, 02:19 PM)TechnicalSuwako Wrote: Understood.
North- and South Korea both used Hanja (Chinese characters in Korean) before too, but they managed to completely abolish that in favour for Hangul.
Though I don't think that was a really good idea, since Korean has the same issue as Japanese and Chinese, which is same spelling for lots of different words.
But even though they no longer use Chinese characters, both Koreas still teach Korean pupils Hanja today, since there are still older documents written with Hanja and not teaching those would make them unable to understand those.

Communist China also did an effort by simplifying a huge number of Hanzi (Chinese characters in Chinese) to ensure that more Chinese people will become able to read.
It worked, though traditional characters are still in use too (which is convenient for me as someone who knows Kanji, which is more similar to the traditional characters than it is to the simplified ones).

Though Japan too simplified a lot.
I used to be in some Discord server that heavily talked about anything historical about China and Japan at one point (only 7 people including me were there, only half of which was active), they shared quite some text from ancient Japan, and I can definitely see how much more difficult Japanese was back then compared to how it is now.
I recently left since everyone stopped talking there.

I've heard about some of it, and it seems perfectly reasonable to me. Sure, there is a problem with different words written the same way, but that just reflects how they are pronounced, right? If you can distinguish the words in the spoken language, you should be able to do the same with the text. Lack of spaces between words might make it more difficult for sure, but you know, they can always add these spaces : D I dunno if they would want to. These kinds of changes are always met with backlash from people.

I find it especially interesting with Chinese because I would assume teaching the Hanzi to young children is huge problem with probably makes the school learning curve way steeper. I've read somewhere that Japanese students are required to master more than 1000 Kanji before graduating from high school, while there are almost 6000 Kanji total (the numbers might be wrong, but the idea is that nobody even expects students to know a half of the Kanji, which is a vital part of their native language. That can't be helpful for education. I wonder how Chinese will manage that in the future.


Quote:It worked, though traditional characters are still in use too (which is convenient for me as someone who knows Kanji, which is more similar to the traditional characters than it is to the simplified ones).


Never thought about it that way : D So knowing Kanji helps you understand older Chinese texts, but the reform messed with it? That is pretty interesting.

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テクニカル諏訪子
Retired Staff

(03-14-2018, 03:24 PM)SecretWish Wrote: i read in a manga that kanji is closer to english

I'm not sure how to understand this part.
Your whole post actually gives me floating question marks, but this one sentence even more.

(03-14-2018, 07:22 PM)Sindar Wrote: I've heard about some of it, and it seems perfectly reasonable to me. Sure, there is a problem with different words written the same way, but that just reflects how they are pronounced, right? If you can distinguish the words in the spoken language, you should be able to do the same with the text. Lack of spaces between words might make it more difficult for sure, but you know, they can always add these spaces : D I dunno if they would want to. These kinds of changes are always met with backlash from people.

I find it especially interesting with Chinese because I would assume teaching the Hanzi to young children is huge problem with probably makes the school learning curve way steeper. I've read somewhere that Japanese students are required to master more than 1000 Kanji before graduating from high school, while there are almost 6000 Kanji total (the numbers might be wrong, but the idea is that nobody even expects students to know a half of the Kanji, which is a vital part of their native language. That can't be helpful for education. I wonder how Chinese will manage that in the future.

Not really.
In spoken language, Japanese people typically use pitch accent to make clear which word they mean.
Like how I once fucked up when I asked for Mr. Satou; I was supposed to say SAtou-san, but instead I said saTOU-san, which means "mr. sugar".

As for the amounts, Japanese students have to learn only 2136 Kanji total, Chinese something around 3500 Hanzi I think, but both ways the total amount of Kanji/Hanzi/Hanja in existence is unknown, but there are rumours of a number being between 9000 and 12000.
The good news is that even for native speakers of either language it's impossible to know that much of them.

(03-14-2018, 07:22 PM)Sindar Wrote: Never thought about it that way : D So knowing Kanji helps you understand older Chinese texts, but the reform messed with it? That is pretty interesting.

Not necessarily just older text, also in parts that are strictly traditional (like Taiwan) or parts that use both (like Hong Kong).
And you say it correctly, you'll understand, but only the core meaning of a sentence.
You won't be able to understand everything, and you won't be able to read anything at all if you know Japanese and read traditional Chinese text (or vice versa).

(This post was last modified: 03-15-2018, 04:31 AM by テクニカル諏訪子.)

ケロケロ。

Username in English: Technical Suwako
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Angel
Super Nova

(03-15-2018, 04:25 AM)TechnicalSuwako Wrote: I'm not sure how to understand this part.
Your whole post actually gives me floating question marks, but this one sentence even more.


Not really.
In spoken language, Japanese people typically use pitch accent to make clear which word they mean.
Like how I once fucked up when I asked for Mr. Satou; I was supposed to say SAtou-san, but instead I said saTOU-san, which means "mr. sugar".

As for the amounts, Japanese students have to learn only 2136 Kanji total, Chinese something around 3500 Hanzi I think, but both ways the total amount of Kanji/Hanzi/Hanja in existence is unknown, but there are rumours of a number being between 9000 and 12000.
The good news is that even for native speakers of either language it's impossible to know that much of them.


Not necessarily just older text, also in parts that are strictly traditional (like Taiwan) or parts that use both (like Hong Kong).
And you say it correctly, you'll understand, but only the core meaning of a sentence.
You won't be able to understand everything, and you won't be able to read anything at all if you know Japanese and read traditional Chinese text (or vice versa).

i am not good at english and most of the time i make mistakes often. i think you got why i laughed and the second this is something i read in a yaoi manga

(This post was last modified: 03-15-2018, 02:40 PM by Angel.)

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テクニカル諏訪子
Retired Staff

(03-15-2018, 02:39 PM)SecretWish Wrote: i am not good at english and most of the time i make mistakes often. i think you got why i laughed and the second this is something i read in a yaoi manga

Actually, I don't know why you laughed.
I acutally think it 's rather rude to laugh when I try to give an as accurate explanation as possible.

ケロケロ。

Username in English: Technical Suwako
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